HILARY Armstrong has become the latest government minister to say that Muslim women wearing full face veils had problems integrating properly into British society.
Her comments come as Tory leader David Cameron warned that too many politicians were "piling in" to the highly charged debate.
The Durham North West MP responsible for Social Exclusion in the Cabinet spoke out after the teaching assistant who lost her job for wearing the niqab lost three of her four claims against the school education authority which suspended her.
Mrs Armstrong said: "Those who decide to wear the veil just make it that much more difficult for their neighbours, anybody that they are talking to, to really feel they are sharing values and so on with them.
She added: "I think it is very difficult to actually wear a veil and participate in everything in our society."
And Tory leader David Cameron warned that it was time for politicians to keep quiet.
He said: "I think there is a danger of politicians piling in to have their ten pence worth and really they have to ask themselves whether this is having an overall good effect or not."
[#1: weebrucey] excellent start. what i want to know is how does the lady in question eat her school dinner ?
Brucey You got it Right this time but have you got against bulldogs ???
I wonder if the women who wear veils ever go abroad, and, if so, what sort of passport photograph do they have. How do they get through the various custom and passport checks.
I lived in Bradford for about four years in the early 1970@s and do not remeber seeing any women wearing veils.
Is this a fashion statement?
Clearly a lot of people are upset by the full veil. The outcry is not an attack on Muslims, although racists on both sides of the argument would like us to believe so.
Muslim women who wear the veil do so for different reasons, but how are we to know what is the reason a Muslim women wears a veil without getting to know her? The difficulty is, the veil makes her unapproachable. She may wish to be judged by her personality and not her appearance, but instead she is judged by her veil.
Perhaps she just wishes to be seen as devout. I just find myself confused.
[#7:mel] with the exception of your gender-choice may i be among the thousands, nay millions agreeing with you.
In answer to #2 poster, watch these muslimas, wearing the full veil, eating spaghetti.
5 stars.
You've all got it wrong, these sisters are radicals who wish to turn Britain into its rightful place as a Muslim Republic.
Give us five more years and you'll see how far we've progressed
Mohammed How do you know they are sisters?
they might be transvestites. After all we cannot see their faces
While u have many fans and surprise surprise one of them from Kate who comes from the most racist countries in the world, we should remember that:-
1. Why do whites try to get tans - trying to be asian in colour.
2. Why do you find the veil insulting, coz unlike you guys, muslims still have morals (a girl who wears nothing on a night out and gets taken advantage of..
..i wonder why that happens.
...
.coz of what she wears and has no morals).
3.
Feminists will argue the veil oppresses women, but things like girl power and the whole fasion industry is run by men, so it shows how bright those women are (I wont even start Kate on how dumb Americans are as we all know that anyway.
I will watch it every day!
Good on ya Hash for your comments. You really do represent these veiled troublemakers.
..ie: you don't get it!
!!!
!!!
!!!
Maybe you should get on the hash...
i hear it can broaden minds :-))))
#14. Wow, methinks you don't like me. How will I get through the day?
But the important question is: Did you enjoy the video?
Will someone please tell me how the hell a woman wearing a veil gets served in a bank - after all you are not a allowed to wear a full face helmet?-its just a matter of time before a bank is robbed by persons male or femail wearing a full face veil [der].
..how easy would that be?
Wow! I didn't realise just how many prats read the
Evening news (or have you had it read to you while you just look at the photos while spouting the same old racist rhetoric!) Grow up!
Also Eevening News moderators should be a bit more alert as they could be sure this story would attract bigoted morons!
they can use my bank, any profit will be an improvement
Judging the morals of a woman by her clothing is a bit like judging a book by its cover.
.. it's a natural instinct, but not an intelligent one.
Muslim women say they wear veils so they will be judged by their contents, not their covers. I wish them luck - they need it.
When in Rome do as the Romans do - Scottish women don't wear veils - visitor's should wear them whilst visiting if they want - if you are asked to remove them in schools and at airports don't make a fuss - stay in your own 'veil shrouded' countries if you don't like our western ways.
comment 18- WOW a white muslim male called Gareth how about that?-i bet thats not his/her real name! still hiding behind the veil even in print.
..
Stop bombing the countries, taking the oil, raping the women (i know you western women are used to this!
!!!
) oh and coming into these countries...
...
hmmm you dumb witted person...
.how much money does saudi arabia have in America?
Anyway God will judge, will he prefer the peaceful women covering themselves gracefully, or the tarts who flirt with men and then complain when they get groped and raped.
War, caused by America, Global warming - caused by America. You guys are hilarious, all of commit adultery and have been shagged by dozens upon dozens and you wonder why your own people go clubbing looking for slappers!!
Come back home guys, its better than enduring islamophobia there. Besides, what did you gain there? All your money won't help against racism and discrimination.
And after you come back we can review our import and business policies; punish West economically.
Morals of muslim women eh? Loads of muslim youths especially in countries like egypt and syria, get marriage certificates for the weekend then bonk as much as they want.
this lasts until they want another bonk with someone else whereby they get another certificate. hymen reconstruction surgeries are the most popular in these countries too.
morals eh.
...
...
.
at least westerners do not pretend to be morally superior.
hypocrisy at all levels.
Veils look cool. I'm gonna wear one when I go out from now on. I've lived in Britain all my life so I'm doing nothing wrong.
Right?
Its funny how many Muslim men you see hanging around the night clubs in the City trying to pick up local women,and I think I'm right when I say the Koran does not tell women to cover up from head to toe,just to keep them selves respectable for their men,and Hash,try following your choosen pleasure in a Middle Eastern country then.
Firstly dont even try and compare the two as if white women ever go to a muslim country they get treated as slappers, i wonder why.
...
.is it because they enjoy being slappers..
..i think so.
...
..and again I say they then complain when a man forces himself on her.
Secondly, people who act like that are not muslims.
It's like Christians having gays as priests..
...
.I have read the Bible countless times..
...
its forbidden in there!!!
But I guess you guys are tired from all the cheap slappers!!!
!
I probably would do Paul if you stopped invading them and raping the women and taking our oil.
Well I suppose Animals dont have any morals, so I guess I understand why you guys do that
Hash,
Given that Saudi Arabia practically owns the USA, isn't your anger somewhat misplaced?
Besides, you distort everything with your hatred. I hope for your sake that you learn tolerance, forgiveness and understanding before God judges you.
They've got a point you know.
If we were stronger in faith they couldn't discriminate us. So masses of immigrants to West are responsible as well. Why won't you stay home and work?
Come back home; we will punish them here economically. Give more contracts to our own companies, dry them financially.
Frank,
Thank you for your comments.
If you look at the first comments, they were pure racist and I feel these people who have such morals should be brought some home truths.
Not hatred, just quite funny how easily most of the above people are swayed by propaganda.
Hey lets all go about in Veils.
...
this weekend...
get stoned,start a ruk...
then sceam discrimination, when the Polis tries to take to book us...
.On a serious note..
.well said Ali baba..
..not many folk know that side of Muslim ways.
...
.plus in less tolerant Muslims lands,coz females are not allowed out with males..
.their is so much homosexuality,simple because they can date a girl as in the West! (P.
S. I aint Gay bashing..
.its a fact)
Kate (9), Spot on at showing the stupidity of this garment in a modern western society.
Hash, stop smoking as much of what your called, its affecting your brain.
What...
.fact my ass!!
!!
Fine if its a fact, prove it?
Or if u cant your lying...
..does say facts unless you can back them up.
Why wingman,
do white women then dress like slappers when going to muslim countries...
..do they adhere to the dress codes?
?? no.
...
...
coz they're all slappers
so boring, hate remarks don't help at all, instead go here:
Hash ------ by referring to All White Women as Slappers shows just what an ignorant, hatefull, nasty person you are, you are either at the Wind-Up or a truly despicable Human being...
...
this is fact!
! i do not wish to detail the specifics but if you care to learn, then your research will show the same conclusion. barely a mention of it in the national news.
this has been happening for a good few years now.
This guy Hash sounds like bad news INFACT A BIT SCARY - we will probably read about him one day when the next suicide bombers do their evil work -that his real name is [yes you've gusssed it!] and his head is found several hundred yards away with a big smile on it.
.. [IN HEAVEN WITH AS MANY SLAPPERS THAN HE COULD EVER HAVE DREAMED OFF].
..
Slappers isn't that just a letter change from the 1920s flappers can't you be more original stop stealing our propiganda and trying to make it your own.
Why do you keep removing the best comments?
what happened to freedom of speech?
Get OFF! the fence Donald.
What exactly is funny about this?and oh yes we have got a clue thats the problem..
.
That can be a fashion statement too! Re marriage certificates in the middle east. Moslem countries have brothels too.
How does a moslem man get casual sex? Marries the unfortunate young moslem girl and divorces her when he has had his way with her. I divorce thee, I divorce thee, I divorce thee.
Job done! Hypocrites!
i'm not racist.
muslims do not necessarily have to be of middle eastern origins, as there are blacks, whites, chinese, and peoples from various other countries and colours who call themselves muslims.
so please, do not go for cheap shots and call criticism of muslim actions, racist.
if islam is such a peaceful religion, why do you hear hardly any muslims denouncing 9/11, or 7/7 bombings.
and don't go for the uk/us foreign policy arguments either as terror attacks like these were being carried out many years back. 1st wtc bombing occurred over 10 yrs ago.
why does al qaeda want non-muslims to leave muslim countries but quite happy for muslims to go to western countries?
if u want to use the racism card, it goes both ways.
comment 50 -what was all that about?
Pass me ur joint Hash.
...
I think I will Pass on any more comments regarding your polite self! Its just ur dress/behave that makes me think u cant get a date or ur name is Abu Hash..
..
typo.
..its just ur comments on the dress/behaviour of Western Women that makes me think u cant get a date, or ur name is Abu Hash.
...
( its the effect of the Joint folks)
Guys,
Just to clarify, maybe said one thing too many.
I have no problem with western people.
I just thought the beginning texts from the various people were extremely offensive and racist and if that is the feeling of people how can anyone integrate.
Everyone is different and need to learn to appreciate everyones one culture and religion and the first posters did not and are obviously racists.
Hash -to clarify , the rantings of one racist are not the views held by the entire populace, furthermore i think without a doubt the UK is the most racially tolerant, ethnically diverse country in the world, this should be celebrated, and the debate about veil wearing should not sidetrack this.
Kate the video is hilarious.
I'll circulate it. We all need a laugh these days.
Don't worry about the anti-American comments.
If you mention America to most people in Scotland, they will start talking about what a wonderful holiday they had in America. We watch American shows, far better than our own and American movies. Although not everyone over here loves America, the majority of people over here do.
You'd be made most welcome! Thanks again for the video link.
Suddenly everyone is different we need to learn to appreciate everyone.
...
Like ur comments i.e.slappers.
..enjoy being slappers,behaving like slappers,but complaining when a man forces themself on them.
..were u the man Hash?
?..
..I think U have been extremely offensive,sexist, in ur comments, Thanks bigtime for having no problem with me.
..a western person.
..I however have a problem with a sexist,woman hating guy like u!
there is no way u can force me to appreciate everyones culture/religion, if that culture/religion,leads to Suicide Bombers, burning books in the street, forcing Plays to be closed coz they offend! taking to the streets like a wild mob when they are once again offended!
Like most peace loving free people of the western world, I’d like very much to believe that Islam is indeed a peaceful religion seeking a peaceful coexistence with all peaceful peoples of the world.
It’s just hard to go with that thought pattern in light of the overwhelming evidence that it just isn’t so… and to believe something that has no supporting evidence and such deadly consequences if wrong, is akin to inviting disaster upon ourselves.
Muslims around the globe demand an apology for the recent unfavorable depiction of Islam by Catholic Pope Benedict. In response to the Popes suggestion that Islam might not be a peaceful religion, as if that’s a news flash, Muslims murder an elderly Italian nun at the Children’s Hospital in Somalia by shooting her in the back three times.
They attack Christians and their churches, burn American flags and western leaders in effigy, all to prove just how peaceful and civilized they really are.
Since the attacks of 9/11, I have spent considerable time studying the Koran (Quran) in an effort to better understand the beliefs, thought patterns, motives and methods of this expanding religion that openly seeks to dominate the world. While it’s true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it is also true that almost all world terrorists are in fact Muslims.
In reading the Koran, I am left with this interpretation of Islam.
There are several sects of the Islamic religion, and these sects are usually at war with each other. But when looking at Islam from a broader perspective, it seems clear and self-evident based on visible experience and Islamic scriptures, that there are only two types of Muslims.
Those who follow the letter of the scriptures, seeking to kill in accordance with Allah’s commandments to rid the world of all infidels, and those who do not follow the letter of the scriptures, thereby becoming infidels and targets themselves.
They can Jihad against each other all they like 58..
.its when they try to influence their ways on a Secular Democratic Country like the UK that bothers me..
. ur interpretation of Islam seems accurate to me!.
...
It in not compatible with Western Culture...
.its really that simple, if we go on fooling ourselves thinking it is..
..there will be no road back for us!
Every country in Europe as well as the U.S. and Canada has been mouthing diversity and tolerance platitudes for years.
Now when we have built this Frankenstein monster who gets apologies for things that no other group of people would get an apology for, acceptance of things that are outside of our native laws and customs, and suddenly we want our monster to conform and everyone wants to talk about it.
Regardless of their native beliefs, there should always have been the same understanding given to Muslim as with anyone else; obey our laws and accept our freedom of expression and our ways and we will accept you the same way.
No one should ever have apologized or caved in about the cartoons or anything having to do with freedom.
No other religion or group of people are exempt from the harassment of the press, why give the radicals of Islam reason to behave badly for similar reasons in the future?
Most Muslims do not behave badly, but we have made things harder for the moderates. Allowing the radical community to grow strong is to cause moderates to be fearful of being openly moderate, or of even condemning the extremists.
How can we ask them to speak out when the government and most of the population tolerates such blatant seperatism?
We just need to deal with our issues now, before they get worse. You cannot ban veils.
Freedom is for everyone. If they are not appropriate for certain things, then Muslim females who wish to wear the full veil will have to exclude themselves. Consessions to the exception is not the answer.
hash
Can you tell me where you found all these 'slappers' ?
Hash ( assuming hes not a wind up merchant ) is Im afraid simply a product of his upbringing. Muslim men are brought up from the cradle being told, and beleiving that western and infidel women are easy and generally giving it away.
That is why in Islamic states, they get ogled, they get followed and harrassed, because Hash and all the other men folk genuinely beleive that they are tarts . and ready to drop their drawers for any man. Even the educated ones, who know that its not actually true, still beleive it on some level.
Illicit sex of course still happens in Islamic countries but they legitimise by these temporary marriages. They can also keep a mistress, say a widow or divorcee and they have a term ( some arabic word) which legitimises that in their eyes as some kind of convenience marriage as they are doing this poor woman a favour.
The men will happly do the infidel maid.
The women will happily do the driver. It all goes on. Of course they have homosexuality too but the menfolk dont see this as an issue as long as you are the giver.
Its only the taker who is bent and usually he will be the asian servant, gardener, or whatever. For the young women, hymen reconstruction is popular and a bit of sodomy is not unheard of ( keeps them virgin) but thats all OK. What doesnt change is this view of western women as tarts.
They are told this from birth and they beleive it.
Mohammad is Allah's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the kaffirs but merciful to each other
Quran 48:29
Hash wants to educate us as to how women should behave.
You're Pakistani, right Hash?
The Pakistani Institute of Medical Science estimates that OVER 90% of Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten or abused sexually
Wearing the veil is an extreme in this religion of Islam and has no place in modern day society as it is shown that it creates inequality between male and female counterparts. People through the ages have died to gain equality and freedom of choice and extremist beliefs have no place in the UK.
#5 Mark - There was a story from Florida of a US muslim convert who wished to have her driver's license picture taken with her veil covering her face. Wisely the state of Florida refused to acquiesce to her wishes. As I recall, the case went to court and she lost on the simple grounds that she would not be identifiable to any officer.
If muslim men do not believe that women wearing the veil makes them degrading then muslim men should have no objections to wearing the veil.
Fat chance, pal! We'll be on you lot like a dog on a rabbit if you try that stuff up here!
I've had it with you freaks! Where wil you be when no-one visits your curry-houses, or buys the crap clothes you sell? You hate us here in the UK, yet you and your families take advantage of everything the state has to offer in way of support!
Try getting services like those in Radge-a-stan!!
Wait a minute.
..
The reason they treat women this way is because most of them are homosexual!
And I'm not being flippant here. There is an old Arabic saying: 'A woman for a boy, a boy for a man..
...
'!
They're ALL in denial, dude!
Hash, you're sadly deluded if you think western invaders are raping women in Muslim lands.
Who'd want to anyway, most Muslim women are so ugly it's not surprising that veils are burqas are compulsary in Saudi Arabia!
Why does it matter what they wear? Why are people concerned with how they eat with a veil on, or how they are served at a bank with a veil on?
How does that affect you? It doesn't. Why should they be forced to assimilate?
So whites don't have to stand the unbearable burden of feeling uncomfortable for 5 seconds when they pass a woman wearing a veil in the street? What a joke.
Most religions evolve.
If you read the Bible it says that slaves are to obey their masters. Well we all don't believe in slavery anymore, civilization has evovled and movd forward for the better.
Mohamed married a SIX year old girl and he CONSUMATED it when she was NINE, look it up, it's true.
(Sorry for the caps but no way to use bolding). Now I don't see Islam continuing in that tradition nowdays. The religion evolved.
So everything mohamed promoted is not in fact being promoted today. For me it is the same thing as the veil. Basically I feel, get over it this is not the 6th century.
you don't need to wear the veil (which they are told to do around any femals who are not muslim), the men are not going to be tempted by your body and jump you. heck they can see all the porn they want on the internet. This whol 'chastity' remaining chast so the men won't be tempted is a line of BS given to keep women down and seperate and below men.
For heavens sake, you quit marrying 6 year olds, now gie up the veil. you'll still get to heaven. I personally ahte the veil.
i can honestly say i am always tempted to reach over and rip it off (NOT that I would ever do that, I wouldn't) but in all honesty I am tempted many times. Same thing witht he stupid head scarves. we are in the new millenium all right allready, get a life, advance.
Chris you nob
The whole point of them wearing it in our country is exactly to make us feel uncomfortable, it's like giving us the big finger. In Pakistan they mainly just wear a headscarf
dougie. Why does the veil make you uncomfortable?
Why do you care what muslim women wear? What impact does a veil truly have on your life? Who cares what anyone wears, what does it matter?
It doesn't at all. I think it's interesting that you think that some muslim women wearing a veil is very offensive, like giving us the big finger , yet you continue to make offensive remarks on this message board. How hypocritical do you sound when you say, most Muslim women are so ugly it's not surprising that veils are burqas are compulsary in Saudi Arabia , and at the same time claim that those same Muslim women are somehow offending you for wearing a simple peice of clothing.
Think about how rediculous you sound. I am sorry that a veil makes you so uncomfortable, but that shouldnt negatively impact the lives of muslims in your country. I think the solution is for you and your peers to simly GET OVER IT.
Chris,
Although you didn't ask me, I'll share with you why I am unconfortable around women with the veil or the headscarf. The reason is, because it immediatly identifies the person as a Muslim. It is like wearing a big billboard saying, I'm Muslim.
it's in my face. It is in my view, they may wear it but I have to look at it. I don't care to know peoples religion.
Now clergy is different, a Priest wearing a colllar, or a nun wearing a habit or the Muslim cleric wearing whatever religios garb they have, I'm fine with that. Because that is the uniform of their job. I had an acquaintence at work (in the USA) who was a closet muslim.
Always dressed conservatively, but never the head scarf. Well if you can believe it after 9/11 she came out to me as being a muslim and wanted my opinion if she thought people at work could be objective about her wearing a scarf at work. I told her I didn't think she should wear one, in fact if she did decide to wear one I thought the only acceptable scarf she could wear would be the American flag.
You should ahve seen her face when i told her that. I ahte it when people are in myf ace with theri religion. I can't stand those Hari Christnas (sure I spelled that one wrong) i their garb begging for donations and trying to get you to convert.
The muslims who wish to live in a western culture need to accept the fact that in the western culture we are not about advertising our religion when we walk down the street. Religion is more personal and private and in fact, good manners say NOT to discuss religion, much less walk around with a billboard on your head. I look at it this way, you are coming into our culture you are the one who needs to change (ditch the headscarf veil) not us.
When we go to a muslim culture as a woman i would dress more modestly, because i am in their culture. If I don't like it i'll just go back and live where i am more comfortable. And it always ticks me off that you rarely hear about Muslim clerics condeming terrorist attacks against westerners.
Oh but print a charachater of Mohamed and we hear plenty from them. the Muslim clerics seem to be to be sneaky, I don't trust them a bit.
Roxanne,
I respect your opinion, but I cannot understand your logic.
In your story about the closet muslim from the USA I think you hit on the fundamental difference in our point of views. That muslim women had every right to wear whatever the hell she wanted to. While you complain that the wearing of the veil is like shoving a set of beliefs in your face, you do the same thing by telling this muslim woman that the only acceptable scarf she can wear is one bearing the american flag.
In fact, i see this as worse, because while the muslim women, by wearing the veil, may indeed be identifying themselves as muslim, they are in no way trying to impose their beliefs on anyone else. You, on the other hand, both tried to deny the muslim woman to wear a scarf after 9-11, and at the same time tried to impose a set of ideals on her by having the only acceptable thing she could wear be an american flag.
I just have a problem when people try to impose a set of ideological beliefs on others who are not willing to accept them.
I guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion.
Chris,
I don't want them wearing headscarves and veils because i ahve to look at it. If they wore their religion modestly, a necklace or something small, a pin in thier lapel, I wouldn't have an issue with it.
There are a lot of jews who wear a Star of David necklace. I have no issues with that, it's small and it doens't shout at me. Like I said a headscarf and a veil they wear but they don't see themselves all day, I on the other hand have to look at it all day every day.
So back to why I told the closet muslim colleague the only acceptable headscarf would be the American flag. This was my logic. If you insist on wearing a headcovering at least make it an American headcovering.
The teachings of Islam is to hate western values. Women must obey any male family members etc. not a western value at all.
So if you say you are a religion of peace etc. and you are going to force me to look at your headscarf all day becasue, after all I work with you in the same office, then at least pick a pro-western headscarf, i can live with looking at the American flag all day. the American flag would be a huge pro-western symbol.
In other words, I'm wearing this becasue of my religion but I am still very much an American.
Actually think it would be great if all the Muslim woman who wear scarves and veils wore ones that were made out of British, French, American flags. Whichever flag is appropriate for the country they live in.
We like looking at our flags, i hate to have a symbol of YOUR religion in our face all day. Keep your religion private, keep it to yourself. So by wearing the flag you do what you need to do, according to your religion, but you do it in a way that is acceptable to the commnity you are living in.
At least I'm looking at the flag which represents MY values, western values. I don't like the Jewish yamakas either, but at least they are small. i can live with that.
And they wear the yamakas all over all the time, not jsut in the presences of targeted groups of people. Like Oh my God I'm going to be in the presence of christian women i better whip out my yamaka and wear it The real religious jews wear it all the time. It is these big humoungus scarves and the veils covering their faces, like I said it is wearing a bulletin board for religion on your head, and I am forced to think about your religion all day long.
I wouldn't want to have to look at a hooker/prostitute all dressd up in her tawdry working clothes all day long either. It's forcing me to think about your sex life all day. Sex and religion are private, keep it to yourself.
Chris would you want to sit next to a hooker all day long in her let's boogie clothes? I mean when a hooker walks down the street you feel disgusted looking at the way she advertises her sluttiness
My kids are scared of veiled women. So stop scaring the kids and ditch the veil.
You won't like it if people went in to your shops wearing balaclavas over their heads, if they were cold for instance.
Folks, a couple of things:-
1 Slagging off Muslims is NOT racism. Muslims are not a RACE, they're adherents to Islam a RELIGION .
'. slagging them off is religious bigotry.
2 Get it through your thick skulls, there is NO god, christian, islamic, jewish or whatever.
It/he/she is figment of some ancient's fertile imagination.
3 Virgins in paradise? You'd be hard pressed to find one earth!
4 Take a holiday in Pattaya - Thailand for those who need a geography lesson - and watch the perverts walking hand in hand with young boys. By perverts, I refer to Arabs in their flowing robes!
rox,
I really don't care what people wear at all.
So in regards to your question, no I wouldn't have a problem sitting next to a hooker wearing lets boogie clothles. It has absolutely no affect on me at all.
I think you may have missed my point though.
I understand that you don't like having religion shoved in your face, but will you admit that the veil, while maybe unpleasant for you to look at, is in no way forcing any ideals upon you? At the same time, you, by not allowing the veil, are forcing your ideals upon muslim women, ideals that they clearly do not follow. What is religion but a set of ideals?
While you complain that symbols of religion such as the veil and the yamaka are too overt in their symbolism of a religion, you openly spread your ideals and try to impose them on others by openly condeming the veil. You don't wear ideals on your clothing, but instead you openly profess them in pubic forum. There is really no difference.
On the point of wearing a scarf with a countries flag on it; I think if people want to do that, thats fine. But if they don't, they shouldnt have to wear such a scarf to appease you. What if some peice of clothing you were wearing was annoying someone else, maybe they didnt like the color of your shirt, say.
And they came up to you and said, you know, im sorry, but i really can't stand what you are wearing, so can you wear this instead?
When you say that the veil forces you to think about your religion all day long I really think that is more a personal problem of your own, and no one should have to change their appearance because of it.
Similarly with Big Dave.
I'm sorry if the Veil scares your children, but perhaps that is something you may have to adress with your kids, instead of forcing muslims to change their attire to appease your frightened children.
Just my opinion.
Chris,
The veil DOES force the ideas of Islam on me when I am around women with the veil.
Veil = Islam, Veil = Muslim. Therefore when I am around women with the veil I am constantatly forced to think about THEIR religion, not my religion. Take two western dressed people walking down the street, you can't tell a Baptist from a Lutheran from a Catholic.
Not so with the Muslims. Well it is not my problem. This is MY western culture, it is being invaded by Muslims and the muslims invading it are not assimilating into society.
I really challenge you to work side by side all day long with a woman wearing the veil or a headscarf and not think about her religion, or treat her differently because of the way she dreses.
My clothing does not indicate anything about my religion. It is both the clothing and what the clothing says that I object to.
My clothes do not have a religious connotation, even if they are ugly (which they are not).
You also misread my comments. i said that i didn't like the yamaka either but i can live with it and not object to it because it was small, and the wearer doesn't selectively wear it based on whom they are associating with as is the case with the bubushka and veil.
It is not so in your face as a big old bubushka or full veil. Tunisia and Turkey both have, by law, banned the veil, I'm all for that. If the muslims can give up Mohameds tradition of raping 9 year old girls (his bride, yuck!
), then they can give up wearing the veil. Or they can keep the veil and live in muslim countries. I'll tell you what we send thousands and thousands and thousands of westerners to the muslim countries and we all wear Nazi uniforms and i don't think they are going to like it.
It forces you to think about Nazi's and the holocast all day long everytime you see people in a nazi uniform. Don't tell me you would not be affected by living and working and going about your daily business when people pop up on the street in church, at the grocery store in nazi uniforms. Come to think fo it the muslims might welcome that poor analagy on my part there.
Like I said if they can give up the tradition of child rape they can give up the headgear that is simply a bulletin board for their religion. Are the muslims in Tunisia and Turkey not going to get into paradise??
? Fact of life, religions change, it is time to stop the demeaning of women and the setting them apart. you know, in the extreem they are supposed to not only veil, but to have only one eye showing, the minimum needed.
What century is this out of???
the muslim clerics shove this down their throats in order to maintain POWER. It's brainwashing form birth, it's archaic. I'm glad they banned all overt religious clothing in schools in france.
It's PUBLIC school, not a place for religion.
Chis,
Let me ask you this. it is the culture of many many African women to go topless.
They move to a wetern country and they walk around topless. ok or not ok? after all it is their culture, they have no sense if privacy with the female breast.
is either extreem appropriate in OUR western culture? Cover it all --or --display it all. How far does western society have to go to accept and accomodate everyone who shows up on our shores?
Why don't these people have an obligation to assimilate into our society with our norms?
Chris, what makes you so inadequate that you feel the need to suck up to people who want to colonise our country and make us conform to their barbaric third world squalor?
Do you think you're trying to enlighten us?
Why don't you go and spend a couple of years in a Muslim country and find out how enlightened and tolerant Muslims are themselves
If you want to see how wearing a veil feels like, dont open yur front door, just talk to your visitors through the letter box. This country has really gone mad, i would personally make the lawyer defending this pay the costs himself. The veil says more about muslim men than it does women.
Religion is the root of all evil!
Let's not forget the extremism here in our own country - integration is an aim in words only. Bord na Gaidhlig recently called for the permanent exclusion of English speaking kids from their local school, Sleat Primary, against the wishes of parents.
State funded exclusion is something much worse.
Muslims don't drink, rubbish, whilst working in Baghdad for 2 years all my staff (800 Iraqi's) drank at staff parties.
Muslims have mistresses over and above the 4 wives.
I reckon that an all-British male stag party will be going out dressed in veils for a laugh. At least when they run over cars drunk the CCTV won't be able to identify them.
In addition the next serious incident in London (UK) or even in the world will perhaps involve men or women from any region wearing veils, great disguise.
That is the main objection by westerners. The UK is not ready nor will it ever be to evolve so far to look like the Middle East over night. If you are not prepared to live with in a culture then get out.
A western woman complies with the Saudi law covers up whilst visiting, better than the Arabs glaring over her white skin fantasying with lust.
The UK has freedom of speech, which is much more than some Muslim countries. We voted ministers in and they must be able to make comments without judgement.
They and we are just expressing our feelings. A veiled person will expect to be ID checked at airports or on the street by female staff. If only male staff or police are on hand this will cause extra hassle for both parties.
I understand the veil is choice and is a modern clothing accessory. The Muslim leaders do not make Muslim women wear it so why in the UK is this a topic of conversation. Because this is a way to get back at the western culture etc, the first of many I suspect.
I am predicting that they next serious incident will involve veiled persons causing mass loss of life. The CCTV will not be able to detect who the culprits are, male or female or what religion.
I agree Big Mo #86.
and to take it a step further it's the same having a Labour Government.
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